Episode 30 further explores Debbie and Theran’s honest account of the impact on their relationships and family during lockdown. Clinical psychologist, Robin Scott gives valuable observation and insight.

Robin Scott highlights the incubator space of lockdown and how this amplifies already existing issues between couples. Important takeaways include: arguments are not about the content, we want to be seen and heard, that it’s okay to feel this way and to learn how to be vulnerable with one another.

Join our conversations around reintegrating post lockdown.



Theran Knighton-Fitt: Welcome to the next episode. The next full episode of mental health and wellbeing in COVID-19. This is my wife Debbie. I’m sure you remember her from the previous episode. The couch study. I hear you’ve had a little bit of sharers remorse?

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Yes, I did. I watched it after we filmed it and I thought, “Ah, this is strong”.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: You thought, “He’s not that bad”.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: And then the next morning, I thought, “Mm hmm, that was, no, no, shouldn’t do it”.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: It’s fine.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: And there were lots of things. I wish I’d said, that I hadn’t said. Jokes. Good things I wanted to have added that and I felt, yeah, but anyway.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Anyway, the reason we have Debbie here today is because we are going to be doing a debrief of that conversation in this episode today with the clinical psychologist Robin Scott who specialises in essentially, marriage counselling, couples counselling. A very long, not very long, but very active career in this space, in this field. His passion is relationships and people. And he’s an old friend of ours at Mygrow, a connection of ours from years gone by. And he’s actually one of the psychologists we often refer people to, throughout, you know. If people in the Mygrow journey need some extra help, we’ll refer them to Robin. So, he’s agreed to jump on a call with us to unpack our couch study. And to just give some practical, some practical advice and tips and I don’t know, let’s see what he says. But we’re going to get him on the call now and very vulnerably allowing him to take our couch study and give us some feedback on it. So, I hope it’s going to be relevant and applicable to you as well. Let’s get him on. So Robin, thank you so much for being here with us. And, you know, let’s see where this conversation goes. We’re very keen to get your perspective on that little interaction, that couch conversation. The couch study, as we call it. To get your input on what it is you’re seeing as a clinical psychologist with a lot of experience helping couples and helping families deal with all this kind of stuff. So, I don’t know what to do other than to just throw the ball to you and say, “What did you make of our conversation?”

Robin Scott: I am just going to say that I really loved the clip, right. It’s just so much about it that is relatable to so many people, I’m sure. Even if their specifics are really different and I think as as someone who’s done a lot of couples therapy, and I’ve probably done therapy with a few hundred couples now as I sit here today. It’s just such a common, the themes are so common in the stuff that you’re speaking about. And, and a lot of that is so normal and I think even more than the content I think a lot of people are probably going to be relating to some of the positions you were taking, As you were speaking. I think that’s almost what I was hearing and listening to in terms of like, “Do you see this?” “No, but do you see this?” I noticed a little bit of that right and I think that’s really normal. So, just to say that to you guys, don’t panic just yet. I’ve got a lot of hope for you. And, just to say that position where it feels like, “we should be speaking about something that is quite straight forward”, or “we should be able to resolve this thing, but why are we getting stuck?” and “are you still hearing me?”. Like that kind of dynamic is really normal.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Can we just pause there, I’d love to actually like dive into that a little bit. Because when you’re in that position, you don’t have the benefit of 2020 vision, you don’t have the benefit of being able to stand outside of yourself necessarily, unless you’ve learned how to do that. Just stand outside and see that you are taking a certain position. So, you’ve had the third-party view to be able to look in and see that. Would you mind unpacking that for us? Maybe that idea, not just for us, but that we take on a position in a conversation and what can you help us with around that?

Robin Scott: Yeah, so, and I think it’s really helpful that we’ve got your discussion to draw on, because it’s a good case study. And there were just a few moments that I really appreciated as kind of just giving a good demonstration of that. And sitting with these moments where Debbie you were kind of saying, “Do you see this? Do you see this?” So, you’re, I’m just getting to my notes to get your words. Right. But for example. Like there was this example of, “Theran, you see, or you respond to things in the moment, but you’re not seeing, for example, that behind that, behind what I’m doing in terms of the homeschooling, I’m able to order the ink and do all of this stuff”. Right? So, I mean, that was one of the examples we brought up. And then he kind of responds to that with “Do you see what I’m doing? Like, do you see the fact that I’m so stressed?” And then you go, “Yes, but even though you’re stressed, like, you get to focus”.

Maybe I’m getting it out of order, but there were these, there’s always this moment of trying to like raise the flag, “But do you see how stressed I am?” Right? And what’s interesting as I listened to that conversation, I can see that part of the responses you’re giving each other are in some way actually trying to console the other person. Like they’re trying to say like, put their stress in context, almost. But on another level, as you’re doing that you’re feeling unheard, right? In some way. And I think you even said that, at some point Debbie, I think you might have used the word “unheard” or “unseen”. One of those words came out there and there is this contrast like, “If my boss sees or doesn’t see me, that’s one thing. But if you, Theran my husband don’t see me, that activates a whole different thing inside of me”.

And so underneath the content, underneath that dynamic is this thing of, “I really want you to see what I’m going through”. Often the other person responds in the content, right? And so, as they do that they’re either telling you, you shouldn’t be this stressed or they’re also stressed. But as they’re doing that, the thing you’re not feeling, if you get down to the real basics of a relational moment, the thing you’re looking for is empathy. Right? It’s, “Hey, you see what I’m going through, you understand that feeling?” And “Something that you would give back to me would show that you care about that”, right? And that “You want to meet me there?” And so often, a conversation where it’s just “But do you see this? But do you see this? It’s kind of both sides, looking for that empathy, and not feeling it as the other person kind of brings another example. Right? Is that making sense?

Theran Knighton-Fitt: So, we’re both calling for the same thing?

Robin Scott: Yes.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: We’re both calling for the same need. We’re both needing the other one to understand it. While you were talking, it reminded me of that phrase, “Seek first to understand and then to be understood”, but it’s almost as if what you’re saying is that Debbie and I both keep saying to each other, “Seek first to understand and then to be understood”. And then she’s like, “Yes, but seek first to understand”.

Robin Scott: Yes.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: You know, instead of applying it to ourselves or trying to apply it to the other person. Any thoughts from you on that?

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Yeah, no, I think that’s probably one of our biggest issues. Is that we are, we’re both pushing and we’re both on the same team. But we’re both like, “See me. Look. Look.” Like I was saying it’s not about my boss, it’s not about you know, whoever else, it’s about, “I want to be seen by this person”. We’re both sort of jumping up and down in front of each other, like, “Hello”.

Robin Scott: Yes.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: And then the competition starts. Like I said in the clip, it’s almost like, “It’s not about what I want to tell my employers or employers, in general, even though I know that’s an important part of this. It’s more about, like, it’s between us. It’s this competitiveness between us where we’re both trying to prove how tired we are. We’re driving each other crazy because we get how tired the other one is. But we need to tell you how tired we are. We’re both in it, but we’re not empathetic towards each other. We’re just trying to lick our own wounds.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I must say that it could have gone a lot worse. I mean, if we hadn’t been filming that.

Robin Scott: Yes.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: It may have like…

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: I never get to win. I feel like Theran is such a good conversationalist, or he can craft an argument so well. Often, I just end up going like, and it didn’t happen in this footage because he was very polite.

Robin Scott: Very polite.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: I have to ask the right questions, and I got messages from the team who saw it saying, “Wow, that would have escalated if that was me, at home” and I’m like, “Oh, it totally would have if we didn’t have a camera”.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Hey, don’t share the secrets. It seems to me. Sorry, Robin, it seems to me that what you’re raising here as an initial jumping off point for us to begin on, is something that the viewers no doubt will resonate with, as well. Because it’s abstract enough, it’s general enough to be a universal thing that so many couples find themselves experiencing and you no doubt in your counselling have seen, as you say, you know, hundreds of couples now, you’ve seen that this is a theme. I’d love to know. You know, of course, our situation is just one conversation that we’re now treating as a case study. You are still in, on the front lines right now, doing counselling with people through Zoom calls and whatever. Have you seen this, the kind of things we’ve been struggling with in this moment? Are you seeing that mirrored in other people’s situations?

Robin Scott: I mean, absolutely. In terms of the dynamic and I can expand on, a little bit moe on that. I think it’s, what’s happening now, is what happens all the time, extrapolated, right? So, whatever is actually in the relationship is now under, is now in an incubator and beginning to grow, right? Because you’re literally stuck in this space and there’s no escape from it, right? You can get like, what, 50 metres from each other. And there’s only so many places you can hide. Right? So, I think it’s actually just an escalation of the dynamic that could be there to the point, right?

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I think that’s very helpful. Actually, that’s pretty helpful because it’s almost like it’s there, I love your incubator idea, the bacteria or whatever it has been there already. The temperature just hasn’t been arrived to make it come up. Or maybe it is an old struggle. Our viewers have dealt with certain things, but now the pain is there because of other factors, which is exacerbated.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: There was that instance, sorry, do you remember when the kids wouldn’t leave me alone? And then I hid in the bay window. It was the only place I could go and I closed the curtain. So, on the little daybed and the kids didn’t know where I was. And I just I just hid there.

Robin Scott: Yes.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I didn’t even know she was there.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: And they looked in the bathrooms-

Theran Knighton-Fitt: In the laundry basket.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: And I was just like, “Don’t. Nobody come near me. Just stay away”. I hid, literally because I just wanted to get away from everyone. I just needed to breathe.

Robin Scott: And there is this moment that’,s a lot of the parents will experience this moment of joy, especially when you have small kids when you realise you’re so much better at Hide and Seek than they are, right? You can literally hide for hours and they will not find you. It’s amazing. I’ve never done this.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: You have kids roughly the same age?

Robin Scott: Yes. Of course, I’ve never done this, right. I mean, I’m a psychologist, never. This never happens. People, I’ve heard of. So, I think one of the things I want to say here, which kind of makes your discussion around work relevant to everyone whether they’re in that situation or not, is one of the principles that I work on as a therapist is that it’s never about the content. Right? It’s never about how much time you are spending at work. It’s never about, “How are you raising the kids?” It’s never about, “What are you spending the money on?” It’s never about. Yeah, I mean, the whole range of things, sex, people argue about sex, I don’t know if I’m allowed to say that on this forum, but these are the things that people argue about and they get fixated.

“How much time are you spending on your cell phone?” I think, “What is it a reasonable time for someone to spend on?” And then people can get like, get out their spreadsheets and at some point, you could even win the argument on like a factual level right? But it doesn’t settle thee thing that’s raised it’s head, because it’s never about the content. Actually, the content is always a vehicle for the relationship dynamic. And actually, the argument is always about the bond. And like I said, as I was watching you guys speaking about work, and parenting, and how much time each of you are giving to that, what I was hearing was, underneath that was, “Please see and understand me”. “No, please see and understand me.” Right? And on one side, it’s almost like “I’m desperate for help, please help me”. Right? I need to know that you’re right here next to me. And on the other side, I mean, this is a crude summary, so apologies if I get the nuances wrong, but on the other side, it’s “I’m giving so much more I’m able to give”. Right? And that’s kind of what I was seeing behind each of your sides of that argument, was like, “Are you here for me when I need you?” This is, “Can you see what I’m giving you and that I’m trying my best?” Actually, that’s an emotional need that you have from your partner that’s hiding underneath the conversation. Right?

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Hmm, yeah, that is really helpful actually. Never about the content, as you’re saying it’s never about this sounds like well, “What is it about? What does it? Get to the punch line?”

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: See that’s what he would have been like if he let loose.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: How do we address that? How does a couple listening to this? Not even a couple, it is probably just one of the people listening to this thinking, “I wish my spouse was listening as well”. How do we address it? What kind of tips and tools can you give us? What resources are there for us to meet that emotional need? And to maybe shift perspective away from the, you know, the particular things of this one instance?

Robin Scott: May I briefly just say a little bit in answering that question about the, what I find to be really exciting, science of relationships? It’s behind all of this, can I go into that?

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Please.

Robin Scott
If I get too boring, just be like, “Time out , bro”.I mean, I think the last 30 years in terms of scientific research into relationships and intimate adult relationships and how they work has been so exciting. It’s been just a time that we’ve learned so much. And what we’ve learned is that adult relationships. function as attachment relationships, what we call them, which is about – an attachment relationships are these fundamental., and then we would even argue like the most fundamental human need, that they can be, which is this: you drop someone in a desert, and the first thing they start looking for a coconut to speak to, right? There is this need in us to develop relationships that are close and to have others that are close and committed to us in a way we feel that emotional presence to them.

And that’s what we mean when we talk about an attachment relationship. And what we found in research is that attachment relationships are universal. And it’s okay to need those because I think we’re in a culture which says “No, you should be okay by yourself”. Right? But that it’s okay to need those and that people are very bad at switching that need off, as much as we try and be this really independent culture. What we found is that those relationships are key in terms of the way we buffer psychological distress from the environment, so that when the environment becomes distressing, one of the primary ways that our brains make sense of that is to look for an ally. And those relationships become a secure base. That’s the word that we use. So they become the place from which we operate in the world. So like, I can go and take on a battle knowing that somebody is behind me to resource me if I need it. And they become a safe haven.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I mean, that’s what we’ll be doing in this whole webinar series to give this kind of broad background and understanding. I think it’s super helpful.

Robin Scott: So, when the world is exhausting, I can go and I can find a place to just be understood and relax and just feel cared for. And we’ve mapped that neurologically, it’s so I mean, the research I could go on for ages, is amazing. But we’ve even mapped how, when people experience pain, and they’re holding the hand of someone that they are close to, their brain actually processes that pain in a very different way. Right to the effect that it’s not felt in the same severity. So, there’s a massive and exciting research body behind this that says attachment relationships are key in neurological soothing. So, the way we sooth our distressing moment, and what happens is when we feel distress, we automatically reach out to the person or the people that are our primary attachments, right? We automatically look for them. And when we feel like they’re not there, our distress amplifies even more. And then we start shifting on to that distress. So, we shift our focus off of the environment, we start shifting our focus into the fact that “Hey, where is this relationship gone?” Like that becomes our preoccupation. And the way we do that is to either ramp it up and to pursue that connection with everything we can find. Or it’s to try and detach, so to try and like not be affected by the fact that that attachment is not there. I don’t know if that’s too much science. But that’s just a-

And you can see that playing out between the two of you, if I can just plug that in there where I can straight away see this thing of Debbie you’re saying “Hey, you’re not there for me, like come be there for me. See that I’m in distress”. And that you want to like, as he is not responding to that, you’re just kind of getting louder, right? And that’s how these arguments escalate. Because you’re actually going “Hello support system. Can you see me? You really, really, really need to see me.” And you can take on a multiple formats in doing that and it can become a full frontal attack. But underneath that attack is, “I really need you to see me and I really needed to hear from you”. Right. And on the other side, I could see you Theran kind of going like, “Whoa, this escalation is becoming a threat. Can’t you see how I’m already here for you, can you calm down?” Like it’s almost trying to like, bring her down to break through and remove the threats to the relationship, right. So, you can see under both of your sides of the argument there is this thing of wanting to restore the bond in a way, but the way you’re doing that is quite different. Does that make sense? I haven’t answered your question of what to do, but I’m just making, but making sense of this, links to that.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, you know, part of the approach we always take at Mygrow is that awareness is actually so much, it is such a great valuable foundation. So, just being aware of some of these ideas and concepts is its own technique, in a sense, it’s it’s own foundation on which to apply some extra techniques, like for instance, filming the conversation. That’s a great technique to make sure that-

Robin Scott: You behaved really well.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Oh, man. We got time for one more thought or idea from you. Anything else that you want to pull out of that chat?

Robin Scott: So, what I wanted to say when going is, what do you do? The first thing is to realise that what I’m actually trying to do is restore my bond. So as you’re getting really upset about the cellphone usage, or the person not packing the dishwasher, or the fact that they are at work all the time. The first thing to realise is, this is not about the content. It’s about the bond. So how can I tell you that instead of telling you about the content, so going, “Hey, you’re on your phone right now. And actually, I’m really needing you. And I can feel myself getting agitated, but it’s actually not about your phone usage. It’s about the fact that right now I really just need your attention”. Right? So, you’re reframing the content into the relationship for yourself. And that’s, I mean, that’s, I’m giving you like the higher grade skill, but that’s where you’re going with that, right? It’s to see, actually underneath my escalation is probably a vulnerable place linked to the relationship and how can I start to express things because when you can express that vulnerability, if you’re in a relationship where there is care, what’s most likely is your partner will tune into that. Because they’re tuning out of you because they’re threatened when you start escalating, they get threatened and they get defensive. But when they can see like, “Hey, there’s something and I care for that person I want to move towards that”.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: It reminds me of the I statement or the I message, which is a well-established technique of how do you reframe the conversation in a way that is not “You’re on your phone too much”. To change it, “It’s actually about what I’m experiencing. I feel I feel that you’re on your phone too much”.

Robin Scott: What you just said there. If I can jump in there is exactly where couples get it wrong. Because instead of saying, okay, “You’re an idiot”, they go, “Oh, it’s an I statement”. “I think you’re an idiot”. Which is not, it’s no less of an inflammatory like statement, right. So, actually an I statement becomes helpful when it’s actually about. It’s actually about “I’m feeling alone”. Right? “I’m feeling I’m struggling to know that you care right now because it feels like you’re not there”.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: And the thing is, of course, the statement is never. “I think you’re an idiot”. It’s, “I think you’re an idiot and so do all my girlfriends”.

Robin Scott: Yeah, and I’ve got this empirical research to show you. I read this article in this magazine that also agrees. So, it’s about the key to undoing this kind of cycle is about being able to access vulnerability. And that’s a very big word right now, in some of the like, EQ circles, but it’s “Vulnerability is something I’m feeling that if I show it to you, like, it makes me, it’s hard for me to show it to you because if you don’t get it, I’m hurt”. Right? So, “The fact that I’m feeling lonely, the fact that I need care, the fact that I’m feeling unattractive, the fact that I’m feeling like you’re more interested in other things than me. Like, the fact that I’m feeling like, I’ll never be good enough for you like, no matter how much I work, it’s just never enough. I still have to give more like, so the fact that I feel like I can’t get your attention, like other things are more important to you right now”. Like, I’m just drawing some of these things out of like, your argument again, like, things that I was hearing, like way down there. And to say that those are normal things that people feel in their relationship, like that’s not an, that’s not necessarily a bad relationship that those feelings come up for everyone. But if you can start saying things like, “Sho it feels like everything else is way more important to you right now. And that’shard for me”. Or, and “I know that might be my insecurity, but I need you to know that I’m helping with that”. Or ” Sho it’s hard right now because I feel like I’m giving so much and I don’t have enough resources to give you everything that will actually make you happy right now”. Like, those are the vulnerable states that if you can start sharing those things with each other, like it can turn that around.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: It seems it’s, sorry, you’d have to tell me if this is right or wrong. But this idea just sort of came up for me as we were chatting is that to take your earlier line, it’s never about the content. Sort of sparked for me, the next thought, it’s never about the content. But if we can engage differently around the content, it can help to address some of that underlying.

Robin Scott: So, what I found as a therapist is that I don’t need to help couples with the content like I don’t actually need to give them parenting skills. They’ve got enough books. I don’t need to, they usually actually know the solution innately. Like I don’t, I don’t need to give them financial advice, or career advice, but if I can help them feel secure with each other and settle the relational needs that are flaring up. When those can settle, a couple can actually talk very creatively about any problem. Right? Because it’s safe, it’s “I know we’re on the same team. I know you do want to give me attention, I know that you don’t want to make me feel bad”. Like we reestablish our alliance and then when we do that, like creative solutions to problems tojust start coming.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Great well Robin I think that’s pretty much all we have. I think we got off pretty lightly, it’s all we have time for today, but thank you so much for taking the time to do your homework beforehand to watch through that episode and to make sure that you had something you know that you could share with us, we really appreciate that. If our viewers are interested in connecting with you, can they just go to Or is there another way?

Robin Scott: Yeah. That’s the best My website, and they can find everything they need on there

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Perfect. So that’s obviously on the screen right now. And you guys can follow, follow that link or go to that website and have a look. But yeah, we’re gonna sign off. Thank you so much, Robin, really appreciate you taking the time, man.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Thanks Robin.

Robin Scott: Thanks. It was a pleasure and thanks for making me feel normal about my marriage too.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: That’s our mission to help everybody feel normal about their marriage. Thanks very much. So, that was Robin Scott telling us that we’re fairly normal.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Which we kind of knew.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: We kind of knew, we kind of knew. Any final thoughts from you, before we sign off?

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Do you know what I was thinking which I didn’t say to you is how often I say to you “Look at me”. How often have we had an argument where I want you to look at me.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: And then I always say, “But you don’t look at me when I’m talking.”

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Obviously I’m seeing you and you’re not seeing me.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I want you to metaphorically look at me.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: But I do, I say it often because I feel seen when you’re looking at me when we’re having a conversation. Don’t give me like your puppy-dog eyes.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I was trying not to blink.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: But that’s a real, when he was saying that. That made a lot of sense to me. That whole not being seen is how often I need you to actually look at me when you’re talking to me so I know that, and then I’ll say to you sometimes, “Oh he’s looking past me, like your eyes are blurring out again”.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: No it’s just your own subconscious identity. The tags you put on me. The way you see the problem is the problem.

Anyway, do you want to tell the viewers you do love me?

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: I do. I love my kids and you know I was chatting with a friend and she explained it really well. And she was saying that everything that she’s doing at the moment and also feeling a bit of overwhelm everything that she is doing at the moment she loves. She loves her husband, she loves her kids. She loves working, she loves being at home. She loves being a homemaker. It’s just all of these things on top of one another and cramped up is just where, for us and for many families, not everyone, but we’re feeling this immense pressure and this immense frustration and so I think that was really good for me to hear because it was like, “I am, I do. I love my family. I love my kids, I love my job. I love these things. I just can’t do them all at the same time”. And that’s what’s making everything feel tainted with frustration and impatience and exhaustion. So, what thoughts did you have?

Theran Knighton-Fitt: So life is good. There’s just a lot of goodness all at the same time.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Yeah, why doesn’t that result in Mauritius?

Theran Knighton-Fitt: One day, 2030.

What were your thoughts? I always feel like, should I look at you? My thoughts are that you know, we live in the particular, we live in the moment here, and now, we live in our own experiences. But if we can get behind those experiences and try and understand some principles or some, you know, some universals, like Robin was saying, this attachment, you know, attachment relationships, that need. That is universal across all humans in all cultures, at all times. If we can understand some of the background behind some of these things, and even, he didn’t have time to go into it, but even just talking about neurologically what happens if I, if I understood correctly, what he was saying, that when one person is going through something, grieving something, and even just having someone there next to them holding their hand, I don’t know if it’s the physical touch. I don’t know if it is their, you know, their attachment relationship there that actually they process that experience, neurologically, they process it differently. And I’m sure if you put little, whatever things in their head, you’d, they would see tha, that’s obviously how they are getting that research. So, I think it’s super helpful. For me the takeaways are actually in the heat of an argument when it’s very much a “you you you”. Actually both parties are actually wanting to try, maybe not always, trying to actually get back to that safeness.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: It’s that beautiful picture that I showed you before of those.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: You’ve been right the whole time.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Why don’t you share this so often?

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Because I’ve been not looking, not listening. Okay.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: But that picture.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: This isn’t the Theran and Debbie comedy show.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: So that beautiful image of those people with their backs to each other in those wireframes. Remember, I have shown it to you before, and that actually-

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I’m going to be brutally honest, and say no.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: You don’t remember.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I’m very sorry.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: Probably wasn’t looking with his eyes.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Okay. Anyway, you may be going through this alone, you may be dealing with something very similar. Every single time I try to do a sign-off, you interupt me.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: You didn’t give your three takeaways. You said “I had three takeaways”. “I had takeaways”.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I don’t think I said three.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: So, what was your takeaway then?

Theran Knighton-Fitt: I talked about the empathy thing, and they’re trying to find each other and then just being aware of the background, being aware of the universals, is helpful even though the specifics are different.

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: I didn’t hear that part.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Okay, she wasn’t listening. Okay, anyways, let’s try sign-off, I’m going to, in a couple of seconds, I’m going to start my sign-off. And if you can let me finish, then it’ll go smoothly, okay? You may be going through this alone by yourself, in a relationship where you’re struggling to connect, you may be with others in relationships, maybe not just spousal, where you’re struggling to find that attachment relationship and that safety. But let’s take to heart what Robin said that these principles are universal. So, even though we are all in this differently, we are all in this together. We’ll see. I will see you in the next episode. Should we end with a kiss?

Debbie Knighton-Fitt: You should say thank you, Debbie for joining me on.

Theran Knighton-Fitt: Thank you, Debbie, for joining me on this webinar. I know that your input has been invaluable, but seriously, we’ll see in the next episode.

Watch our other webinars around reintegrating post lockdown.

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